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	<title>Comments on: Getting the Story Right on Tropical Deforestation</title>
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	<description>Dispatches from the Youth Climate Movement</description>
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		<title>By: Nick Engelfried</title>
		<link>http://itsgettinghotinhere.org/2009/07/19/getting-the-story-right-on-tropical-deforestation/#comment-80258</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Nick Engelfried]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Jul 2009 20:44:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://itsgettinghotinhere.org/?p=12055#comment-80258</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thanks Jeff, Christine, and Heather - all three of your comments raise what I think are some excellent points.  Back in the Internet Cafe in Iquitos, I find myself wanting to respond in more depth than I´d be able to in a paragraph-long follow-up comment.  Your comments make me think I need to write a sequal post that takes the analysis of rainforest issues a step further than this last one did; I return to the US in a couple of days, and will get the new post up as soon as I can.  Thanks again for writing in, and for your thoughtful comments on this important topic.  I hope to continue the discussion soon!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks Jeff, Christine, and Heather &#8211; all three of your comments raise what I think are some excellent points.  Back in the Internet Cafe in Iquitos, I find myself wanting to respond in more depth than I´d be able to in a paragraph-long follow-up comment.  Your comments make me think I need to write a sequal post that takes the analysis of rainforest issues a step further than this last one did; I return to the US in a couple of days, and will get the new post up as soon as I can.  Thanks again for writing in, and for your thoughtful comments on this important topic.  I hope to continue the discussion soon!</p>
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		<title>By: Heather Rayment</title>
		<link>http://itsgettinghotinhere.org/2009/07/19/getting-the-story-right-on-tropical-deforestation/#comment-80151</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Heather Rayment]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Jul 2009 11:24:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://itsgettinghotinhere.org/?p=12055#comment-80151</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Nick and Jeff both make excellent points, in order to protect this invaluable environment we must work with local communities.  We (UK based charity) have just started working with the Crees foundation in the Manu region of Peru addressing the same problem

What&#039;s the problem?  A large amount of land in the Manu region has been logged and cleared for pasture or farming.  This quickly depletes the nutrients in the soil resulting in the land being abandoned and farmers and loggers moving onto new Virgin forest areas.  As a result the land is abandoned and left unused, whist more pristine rainforest goes on to be destroyed.

By working with CREES we aim to rehabilitate this land for local communities by creating Polycultures.  Whats a polyculture?  Firstly a garden containing many crops is planted, locals can sell this produce to visiting tourists as well as feeding their own families.  After a few years trees are then planted with the vegetables.  This system of using multiple crops in the same space imitates the biodiversity of natural ecosystems and makes crops more resistant to disease, thus increasing the annual yield and it provides habitats for more local species.  We will also be helping to improve school facilities in the area which we hope will encourage farmers and their families to settle in the area, thus protecting further areas from destruction.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nick and Jeff both make excellent points, in order to protect this invaluable environment we must work with local communities.  We (UK based charity) have just started working with the Crees foundation in the Manu region of Peru addressing the same problem</p>
<p>What&#8217;s the problem?  A large amount of land in the Manu region has been logged and cleared for pasture or farming.  This quickly depletes the nutrients in the soil resulting in the land being abandoned and farmers and loggers moving onto new Virgin forest areas.  As a result the land is abandoned and left unused, whist more pristine rainforest goes on to be destroyed.</p>
<p>By working with CREES we aim to rehabilitate this land for local communities by creating Polycultures.  Whats a polyculture?  Firstly a garden containing many crops is planted, locals can sell this produce to visiting tourists as well as feeding their own families.  After a few years trees are then planted with the vegetables.  This system of using multiple crops in the same space imitates the biodiversity of natural ecosystems and makes crops more resistant to disease, thus increasing the annual yield and it provides habitats for more local species.  We will also be helping to improve school facilities in the area which we hope will encourage farmers and their families to settle in the area, thus protecting further areas from destruction.</p>
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		<title>By: Christine Marsh</title>
		<link>http://itsgettinghotinhere.org/2009/07/19/getting-the-story-right-on-tropical-deforestation/#comment-80145</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Christine Marsh]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Jul 2009 00:10:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://itsgettinghotinhere.org/?p=12055#comment-80145</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Interesting that I cam on your blog because I was in the rainforest just outside of Iquitos last year for a month. I was working with shamans in the rainforest and had such powerful experiences that, even though I always loved the rainforest I am now even more committed to their protection.

I have recently decided to take steps every day towards this Big Hairy Audacious Goal: 
There is so much about the rainforest that we need as a human race. 

You wrote:
&quot;The first step to conserve this country´s natural wealth must be to limit the expansion of industrial activity in rainforest areas.&quot; How can we take really effective steps to do this? I know writing my politicians is a step which I take almost daily, but I think there can be more effective steps than this. 

How can I &quot;ensure that local people do have the right to determine what happens on their land.&quot;?
If anyone has any measurable ideas on this, please let me know.

I have some ideas and info on saving the rainforest on these pages of my site:
http://christinemarsh.com/?p=842
http://christinemarsh.com/?p=932
http://christinemarsh.com/?p=943

Thank You for writing about Iquitos and the rainforest.
May you experience many miracles today!
Christine]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interesting that I cam on your blog because I was in the rainforest just outside of Iquitos last year for a month. I was working with shamans in the rainforest and had such powerful experiences that, even though I always loved the rainforest I am now even more committed to their protection.</p>
<p>I have recently decided to take steps every day towards this Big Hairy Audacious Goal:<br />
There is so much about the rainforest that we need as a human race. </p>
<p>You wrote:<br />
&#8220;The first step to conserve this country´s natural wealth must be to limit the expansion of industrial activity in rainforest areas.&#8221; How can we take really effective steps to do this? I know writing my politicians is a step which I take almost daily, but I think there can be more effective steps than this. </p>
<p>How can I &#8220;ensure that local people do have the right to determine what happens on their land.&#8221;?<br />
If anyone has any measurable ideas on this, please let me know.</p>
<p>I have some ideas and info on saving the rainforest on these pages of my site:<br />
<a href="http://christinemarsh.com/?p=842" rel="nofollow">http://christinemarsh.com/?p=842</a><br />
<a href="http://christinemarsh.com/?p=932" rel="nofollow">http://christinemarsh.com/?p=932</a><br />
<a href="http://christinemarsh.com/?p=943" rel="nofollow">http://christinemarsh.com/?p=943</a></p>
<p>Thank You for writing about Iquitos and the rainforest.<br />
May you experience many miracles today!<br />
Christine</p>
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		<title>By: Iquitos, Peru &#171; EcoKnow</title>
		<link>http://itsgettinghotinhere.org/2009/07/19/getting-the-story-right-on-tropical-deforestation/#comment-80129</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Iquitos, Peru &#171; EcoKnow]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Jul 2009 19:33:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://itsgettinghotinhere.org/?p=12055#comment-80129</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] The startling implication of all this is that if we´re serious about conserving Peru´s spectacularly rich biodiversity, ensuring that traditional farmers continue their old way of life, rather than taking up industrial agriculture, is actually more important than preventing traditional farmer s from clearing more forest.  Industrial activity in the Amazon is a double-barreled gun which threatens the area´s ecosystems and biodiversity.  First of all, industrial activity itself obliterates vast swaths of forest, often contaminating huge areas with toxic waste that will remain in the soil and water for years.  Second, industrial practices displace traditional villages, and especially indigenous peoples, who are among the most politically disempowered populations in Peru.  The result is that traditional farmers give up a way of life that is relatively sustainable.  They may go to work for large companies like the ones that displaced them, or they may move to the outskirts of Iquitos where expanding slum-like communities, filling up fast with former residents of forest villages, are encroaching steadily on the rainforest.  Read More [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] The startling implication of all this is that if we´re serious about conserving Peru´s spectacularly rich biodiversity, ensuring that traditional farmers continue their old way of life, rather than taking up industrial agriculture, is actually more important than preventing traditional farmer s from clearing more forest.  Industrial activity in the Amazon is a double-barreled gun which threatens the area´s ecosystems and biodiversity.  First of all, industrial activity itself obliterates vast swaths of forest, often contaminating huge areas with toxic waste that will remain in the soil and water for years.  Second, industrial practices displace traditional villages, and especially indigenous peoples, who are among the most politically disempowered populations in Peru.  The result is that traditional farmers give up a way of life that is relatively sustainable.  They may go to work for large companies like the ones that displaced them, or they may move to the outskirts of Iquitos where expanding slum-like communities, filling up fast with former residents of forest villages, are encroaching steadily on the rainforest.  Read More [...]</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Jeff Gang</title>
		<link>http://itsgettinghotinhere.org/2009/07/19/getting-the-story-right-on-tropical-deforestation/#comment-80111</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jeff Gang]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Jul 2009 02:23:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://itsgettinghotinhere.org/?p=12055#comment-80111</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Hi Nick,

I think you&#039;re right on with this.  However, I think there&#039;s a third step that needs to be added to your list.  As you wrote, limiting industrial expansion is key, as is giving local and/or indigenous people the rights to the land they consider to be theirs.  And clearly, we need to change the dream of our world, so we no longer need to continue blind pursuit of natural resource wealth elsewhere [shout out to the Pachamama Alliance].  We can - indeed, must - all work to shift the global market forces away from destruction of forests.

But then we need to recognize the local market forces that influence everyone, including indigenous people and local forest dwellers.  If they suddenly have legal titles to their forests, it stands to reason that the market forces will affect some of their decisionmaking.  I have never been to Peru, but I think it&#039;s probably wrong to assume that if you legally grant people land titles en masse, none will be tempted to convert to industrialized agriculture or sell to oil developers.  This is part of the way humans work in an economic system - to seek personal profit, sometimes without considering environmental cost.

I realize ecotourism is part of the solution - making it economically sound to preserve forest, since they could make money on it by operating a lodge, tours, etc.  But I think it&#039;s a very limited part of the solution, and not very good at enforcing its own goals, since most tourists can&#039;t tell a somewhat good ecosystem from one that may be suffering biodiversity loss.  The result may be a boom of greenwashed tourism, and further degradation of natural capital.

I&#039;m drawn to the only example I&#039;m familiar with, which is Costa Rica&#039;s system of Payment for Environmental Services.  It&#039;s certainly not a perfect system (can any nationally-run, top-heavy institution be?), but it pays landowners to manage forests in environmentally beneficial ways, financed by a tax on water use and fossil fuels.  In essence, the government compensates them for the sequestered carbon and other environmental benefits that result from keeping their forests relatively forest-like, rather than cutting them down or converting them to monocrop.  Some effort is being made to extend this program to those that do not hold legal titles to their land - without which, the program could be disastrous for those without legally recognized land titles.  The program has had high enrollment rates, though its true effect is still being debated.

So, my two cents: Such a program of financing intact forests might help improve the rates of forest being preserved in Perú, while also working to increase the rights of the poor.  But first, as you said, we need to ensure that local people do have the right to determine what happens on their land.

Keep up the good work!
Jeff]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Nick,</p>
<p>I think you&#8217;re right on with this.  However, I think there&#8217;s a third step that needs to be added to your list.  As you wrote, limiting industrial expansion is key, as is giving local and/or indigenous people the rights to the land they consider to be theirs.  And clearly, we need to change the dream of our world, so we no longer need to continue blind pursuit of natural resource wealth elsewhere [shout out to the Pachamama Alliance].  We can &#8211; indeed, must &#8211; all work to shift the global market forces away from destruction of forests.</p>
<p>But then we need to recognize the local market forces that influence everyone, including indigenous people and local forest dwellers.  If they suddenly have legal titles to their forests, it stands to reason that the market forces will affect some of their decisionmaking.  I have never been to Peru, but I think it&#8217;s probably wrong to assume that if you legally grant people land titles en masse, none will be tempted to convert to industrialized agriculture or sell to oil developers.  This is part of the way humans work in an economic system &#8211; to seek personal profit, sometimes without considering environmental cost.</p>
<p>I realize ecotourism is part of the solution &#8211; making it economically sound to preserve forest, since they could make money on it by operating a lodge, tours, etc.  But I think it&#8217;s a very limited part of the solution, and not very good at enforcing its own goals, since most tourists can&#8217;t tell a somewhat good ecosystem from one that may be suffering biodiversity loss.  The result may be a boom of greenwashed tourism, and further degradation of natural capital.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m drawn to the only example I&#8217;m familiar with, which is Costa Rica&#8217;s system of Payment for Environmental Services.  It&#8217;s certainly not a perfect system (can any nationally-run, top-heavy institution be?), but it pays landowners to manage forests in environmentally beneficial ways, financed by a tax on water use and fossil fuels.  In essence, the government compensates them for the sequestered carbon and other environmental benefits that result from keeping their forests relatively forest-like, rather than cutting them down or converting them to monocrop.  Some effort is being made to extend this program to those that do not hold legal titles to their land &#8211; without which, the program could be disastrous for those without legally recognized land titles.  The program has had high enrollment rates, though its true effect is still being debated.</p>
<p>So, my two cents: Such a program of financing intact forests might help improve the rates of forest being preserved in Perú, while also working to increase the rights of the poor.  But first, as you said, we need to ensure that local people do have the right to determine what happens on their land.</p>
<p>Keep up the good work!<br />
Jeff</p>
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