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	<title>Comments on: Climate Bill&#8217;s &#8220;Cap&#8221; on Emissions May Let U.S. Emissions Rise for Next Twenty Years</title>
	<atom:link href="http://itsgettinghotinhere.org/2009/05/21/climate-bills-cap-on-emissions-may-let-u-s-emissions-rise-for-next-twenty-years/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://itsgettinghotinhere.org/2009/05/21/climate-bills-cap-on-emissions-may-let-u-s-emissions-rise-for-next-twenty-years/</link>
	<description>Dispatches from the Youth Climate Movement</description>
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		<title>By: Jesse Jenkins</title>
		<link>http://itsgettinghotinhere.org/2009/05/21/climate-bills-cap-on-emissions-may-let-u-s-emissions-rise-for-next-twenty-years/#comment-79080</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jesse Jenkins]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 May 2009 21:30:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://itsgettinghotinhere.org/?p=11028#comment-79080</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[p.s. all of our analysis here is 100% transparent and we welcome any independent critique or verification (which is why we posted all our work and assumptions).]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>p.s. all of our analysis here is 100% transparent and we welcome any independent critique or verification (which is why we posted all our work and assumptions).</p>
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		<title>By: Jesse Jenkins</title>
		<link>http://itsgettinghotinhere.org/2009/05/21/climate-bills-cap-on-emissions-may-let-u-s-emissions-rise-for-next-twenty-years/#comment-79079</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jesse Jenkins]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 May 2009 21:28:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://itsgettinghotinhere.org/?p=11028#comment-79079</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Matt, as for your question: offsets and emissions allowances are fungible.  Every offset purchased expands the amount of pollution that can legally be emitted in capped sectors(and frees up allowances for use by some other firm).  WRI&#039;s analysis doesn&#039;t differentiate between emissions that occur in capped sectors vs. in the U.S. vs. abroad.  That&#039;s quite a stretch, since I think we all know that if we fail to actually transform the U.S. energy economy, regardless of how many offsets are purchased that supposedly correspond to emissions reductions overseas.

Putting aside whether or not offsets are credible at all (and there&#039;s plenty to make us question whether or not they are), I think it&#039;s pretty apparent that while we need to reduce emissions abroad, fund clean development and stop global deforestation, those goals should be pursued &lt;em&gt;in addition&lt;/em&gt; to our efforts to transform the U.S. energy economy into a clean, prosperous and more just system.  Allowing polluters to purchase offsets instead of reduction their own emissions does exactly the opposite, pitting two necessary goals - transforming the U.S. energy system to a low-carbon system and helping spur clean global development/stop deforestation - &lt;em&gt;against each other&lt;/em&gt;. 

Also, we&#039;ve been highly skeptical of the offset provisions not just since the draft came out (&lt;a href=&quot;http://thebreakthrough.org/blog/2009/04/international_carbon_offsets_t.shtml&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;see for example, this post from April 27th about the discussion draft version&lt;/a&gt;), but &lt;a href=&quot;http://itsgettinghotinhere.org/2008/05/29/will-lieberman-warner-reduce-emissions/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;since the Lieberman-Warner Climate Security Act&lt;/a&gt; - the ideological predecessor to this bill - was circulated and debate in 2008.  We weren&#039;t waiting to spring this for some particular moment.  But provisions were changing quickly as this bill was negotiated, this kind of analysis takes time, and we didn&#039;t finalize our analysis until the bill itself was finalized by the E&amp;C Committee.

I should also note that &lt;a href=&quot;http://climateprogress.org/2008/05/27/boxer-bill-update-probably-no-us-co2-emissions-cut-until-after-2025/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Joe Romm was HIGHLY critical of all those same provisions in the Lieberman-Warner bill&lt;/a&gt;.  The question really is: why is he suddenly A-OK with the provisions in the Waxman-Markey bill.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Matt, as for your question: offsets and emissions allowances are fungible.  Every offset purchased expands the amount of pollution that can legally be emitted in capped sectors(and frees up allowances for use by some other firm).  WRI&#8217;s analysis doesn&#8217;t differentiate between emissions that occur in capped sectors vs. in the U.S. vs. abroad.  That&#8217;s quite a stretch, since I think we all know that if we fail to actually transform the U.S. energy economy, regardless of how many offsets are purchased that supposedly correspond to emissions reductions overseas.</p>
<p>Putting aside whether or not offsets are credible at all (and there&#8217;s plenty to make us question whether or not they are), I think it&#8217;s pretty apparent that while we need to reduce emissions abroad, fund clean development and stop global deforestation, those goals should be pursued <em>in addition</em> to our efforts to transform the U.S. energy economy into a clean, prosperous and more just system.  Allowing polluters to purchase offsets instead of reduction their own emissions does exactly the opposite, pitting two necessary goals &#8211; transforming the U.S. energy system to a low-carbon system and helping spur clean global development/stop deforestation &#8211; <em>against each other</em>. </p>
<p>Also, we&#8217;ve been highly skeptical of the offset provisions not just since the draft came out (<a href="http://thebreakthrough.org/blog/2009/04/international_carbon_offsets_t.shtml" rel="nofollow">see for example, this post from April 27th about the discussion draft version</a>), but <a href="http://itsgettinghotinhere.org/2008/05/29/will-lieberman-warner-reduce-emissions/" rel="nofollow">since the Lieberman-Warner Climate Security Act</a> &#8211; the ideological predecessor to this bill &#8211; was circulated and debate in 2008.  We weren&#8217;t waiting to spring this for some particular moment.  But provisions were changing quickly as this bill was negotiated, this kind of analysis takes time, and we didn&#8217;t finalize our analysis until the bill itself was finalized by the E&amp;C Committee.</p>
<p>I should also note that <a href="http://climateprogress.org/2008/05/27/boxer-bill-update-probably-no-us-co2-emissions-cut-until-after-2025/" rel="nofollow">Joe Romm was HIGHLY critical of all those same provisions in the Lieberman-Warner bill</a>.  The question really is: why is he suddenly A-OK with the provisions in the Waxman-Markey bill.</p>
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		<title>By: jay alt</title>
		<link>http://itsgettinghotinhere.org/2009/05/21/climate-bills-cap-on-emissions-may-let-u-s-emissions-rise-for-next-twenty-years/#comment-78986</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[jay alt]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 May 2009 01:26:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://itsgettinghotinhere.org/?p=11028#comment-78986</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&#039;joe romm tries to shut down climate bill debate&#039; . . .  
Is that you senator inhofe?   The words and argue are so familiar.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8216;joe romm tries to shut down climate bill debate&#8217; . . .<br />
Is that you senator inhofe?   The words and argue are so familiar.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Teryn Norris</title>
		<link>http://itsgettinghotinhere.org/2009/05/21/climate-bills-cap-on-emissions-may-let-u-s-emissions-rise-for-next-twenty-years/#comment-78951</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Teryn Norris]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 May 2009 04:04:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://itsgettinghotinhere.org/?p=11028#comment-78951</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Our response to Romm correcting his misrepresentations: &quot;Joe Romm Tries to Shut Down Climate Bill Debate by Attacking Breakthrough Institute&quot;  http://thebreakthrough.org/blog/2009/05/romm_attacks_breakthrough_for.shtml]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Our response to Romm correcting his misrepresentations: &#8220;Joe Romm Tries to Shut Down Climate Bill Debate by Attacking Breakthrough Institute&#8221;  <a href="http://thebreakthrough.org/blog/2009/05/romm_attacks_breakthrough_for.shtml" rel="nofollow">http://thebreakthrough.org/blog/2009/05/romm_attacks_breakthrough_for.shtml</a></p>
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		<title>By: Matt  Dernoga</title>
		<link>http://itsgettinghotinhere.org/2009/05/21/climate-bills-cap-on-emissions-may-let-u-s-emissions-rise-for-next-twenty-years/#comment-78916</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Matt  Dernoga]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 May 2009 23:40:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://itsgettinghotinhere.org/?p=11028#comment-78916</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[http://climateprogress.org/2009/05/22/waxman-markey-offsets-breakthrough-institute-shellenberger-nordhaus-media/]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://climateprogress.org/2009/05/22/waxman-markey-offsets-breakthrough-institute-shellenberger-nordhaus-media/" rel="nofollow">http://climateprogress.org/2009/05/22/waxman-markey-offsets-breakthrough-institute-shellenberger-nordhaus-media/</a></p>
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		<title>By: Matt  Dernoga</title>
		<link>http://itsgettinghotinhere.org/2009/05/21/climate-bills-cap-on-emissions-may-let-u-s-emissions-rise-for-next-twenty-years/#comment-78902</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Matt  Dernoga]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 May 2009 05:44:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://itsgettinghotinhere.org/?p=11028#comment-78902</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I don&#039;t want you to get me wrong on this post, I dislike offsets.  However, I think the analysis is severely overdramatizing them.

One thing I am confused about in the Breakthrough analysis is how the purchase of international offsets, which the WRI analysis lists as &quot;additional&quot; have anything to do with the supply of the emissions allowances.  As I understand it, purchasing offests supplements a certain number of allowances(which I&#039;m not defending), but they do not add more allowances to the system.  Also, don&#039;t offsets make up about 25% of the total reductions?  

The amount of emissions allowances are a fixed amount are they not?  I know that there is a &quot;strategic&quot; reserve of allowances that the EPA can use to release more allowances into the system if they feel that there are too few, but I find it very hard to believe that we would make the same mistake the Europeans made and start the system off with too many allowances.  Joe Romm has a very insightful post on what the Europeans did wrong with allowances, and how Waxman and Markey have tailored the bill to avoid this  

http://climateprogress.org/2009/05/17/greenpeace-attack-waxman-markey-european-trading-scheme/ 

Another thing that makes me skeptical is that these offset provisions have been in the draft bill since it was first put out in late March/early April.  Why wait until late May to sound the alarm on international offsets?  I&#039;ve seen two WRI analysis, as well as the EPA analysis, which do not find this problem with international offsets.  Has this information been available somewhere else, but I didn&#039;t see it?  

On top of all that, even if it was true that having international offsets would undermine the entire allowance system, I don&#039;t understand how emissions reductions in the US are going to be higher in 2030 than they are right now.  Just the nationwide renewable energy standard of the bill alone(20% RES with 5% being efficiency) should achieve reductions.  Add in the investments made in the stimulus, the newly announced fuel economy standards, the rapid growth of wind and solar power in the country versus no coal growth.  Even with no climate bill, I don&#039;t see emissions rising, even if they don&#039;t drop as much as the science says they should.

Lastly, I find it hard to believe Al Gore would lend any support to the bill if it was going to let emissions rise for two decades.  

I&#039;m just raising different points of skepticism.  I would really be interested in seeing an analysis of the Breakthrough Analysis by other institutes since obviously if international offsets are in fact going to ruin the cap and trade system, we should know.

While I think there are many many aspects of this bill that need strengthening and this is nowheres near what I would write, I completely reject the notion that this bill would do more harm than good.  I think we need to be advocating and organizing around making it stronger, not around trying to kill it.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t want you to get me wrong on this post, I dislike offsets.  However, I think the analysis is severely overdramatizing them.</p>
<p>One thing I am confused about in the Breakthrough analysis is how the purchase of international offsets, which the WRI analysis lists as &#8220;additional&#8221; have anything to do with the supply of the emissions allowances.  As I understand it, purchasing offests supplements a certain number of allowances(which I&#8217;m not defending), but they do not add more allowances to the system.  Also, don&#8217;t offsets make up about 25% of the total reductions?  </p>
<p>The amount of emissions allowances are a fixed amount are they not?  I know that there is a &#8220;strategic&#8221; reserve of allowances that the EPA can use to release more allowances into the system if they feel that there are too few, but I find it very hard to believe that we would make the same mistake the Europeans made and start the system off with too many allowances.  Joe Romm has a very insightful post on what the Europeans did wrong with allowances, and how Waxman and Markey have tailored the bill to avoid this  </p>
<p><a href="http://climateprogress.org/2009/05/17/greenpeace-attack-waxman-markey-european-trading-scheme/" rel="nofollow">http://climateprogress.org/2009/05/17/greenpeace-attack-waxman-markey-european-trading-scheme/</a> </p>
<p>Another thing that makes me skeptical is that these offset provisions have been in the draft bill since it was first put out in late March/early April.  Why wait until late May to sound the alarm on international offsets?  I&#8217;ve seen two WRI analysis, as well as the EPA analysis, which do not find this problem with international offsets.  Has this information been available somewhere else, but I didn&#8217;t see it?  </p>
<p>On top of all that, even if it was true that having international offsets would undermine the entire allowance system, I don&#8217;t understand how emissions reductions in the US are going to be higher in 2030 than they are right now.  Just the nationwide renewable energy standard of the bill alone(20% RES with 5% being efficiency) should achieve reductions.  Add in the investments made in the stimulus, the newly announced fuel economy standards, the rapid growth of wind and solar power in the country versus no coal growth.  Even with no climate bill, I don&#8217;t see emissions rising, even if they don&#8217;t drop as much as the science says they should.</p>
<p>Lastly, I find it hard to believe Al Gore would lend any support to the bill if it was going to let emissions rise for two decades.  </p>
<p>I&#8217;m just raising different points of skepticism.  I would really be interested in seeing an analysis of the Breakthrough Analysis by other institutes since obviously if international offsets are in fact going to ruin the cap and trade system, we should know.</p>
<p>While I think there are many many aspects of this bill that need strengthening and this is nowheres near what I would write, I completely reject the notion that this bill would do more harm than good.  I think we need to be advocating and organizing around making it stronger, not around trying to kill it.</p>
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