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	<title>Comments on: Ken Ward: Early warning signs at the Global Warming Cafe</title>
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	<link>http://itsgettinghotinhere.org/2008/05/21/ken-ward-early-warning-signs-at-the-global-warming-cafe/</link>
	<description>Dispatches from the Youth Climate Movement</description>
	<pubDate>Sat, 11 Oct 2008 06:57:05 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: civilization is the environmental crisis</title>
		<link>http://itsgettinghotinhere.org/2008/05/21/ken-ward-early-warning-signs-at-the-global-warming-cafe/#comment-64377</link>
		<dc:creator>civilization is the environmental crisis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 May 2008 12:31:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://itsgettinghotinhere.wordpress.com/?p=4754#comment-64377</guid>
		<description>[...] over here at IGHIH. the last few heated discussions have been mostly focused on our agreements ahttp://itsgettinghotinhere.org/2008/05/21/ken-ward-early-warning-signs-at-the-global-warming-cafe/Gore calls for new 'hero generation' to tackle the global warming threat The Philadelphia [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] over here at IGHIH. the last few heated discussions have been mostly focused on our agreements ahttp://itsgettinghotinhere.org/2008/05/21/ken-ward-early-warning-signs-at-the-global-warming-cafe/Gore calls for new &#8216;hero generation&#8217; to tackle the global warming threat The Philadelphia [...]</p>
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		<title>By: how to stop domestic arguments</title>
		<link>http://itsgettinghotinhere.org/2008/05/21/ken-ward-early-warning-signs-at-the-global-warming-cafe/#comment-64268</link>
		<dc:creator>how to stop domestic arguments</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 May 2008 09:57:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://itsgettinghotinhere.wordpress.com/?p=4754#comment-64268</guid>
		<description>[...] over here at IGHIH. The last few heated discussions have been mostly focused on our agreements ahttp://itsgettinghotinhere.org/2008/05/21/ken-ward-early-warning-signs-at-the-global-warming-cafe/Noam Chomsky on 1968 The New StatesmanNineteen sixty-eight was one exciting moment in a much larger [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] over here at IGHIH. The last few heated discussions have been mostly focused on our agreements ahttp://itsgettinghotinhere.org/2008/05/21/ken-ward-early-warning-signs-at-the-global-warming-cafe/Noam Chomsky on 1968 The New StatesmanNineteen sixty-eight was one exciting moment in a much larger [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Cascadia Brian</title>
		<link>http://itsgettinghotinhere.org/2008/05/21/ken-ward-early-warning-signs-at-the-global-warming-cafe/#comment-64247</link>
		<dc:creator>Cascadia Brian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 May 2008 17:02:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://itsgettinghotinhere.wordpress.com/?p=4754#comment-64247</guid>
		<description>I'm with you all on most all of this, and there are some good unifying themes here....

But isn't it a little too optimistic to say:

"changes that are actually reducing emissions are also those that challenge the existing energy structure - not only in its reliance on planet-cooking fossil fuels but also in its persistent valuation of short-term gains (profits) over sustaining life and maintaining community health"

I think the powers that be are making the case that clean coal, nuclear, carbon offsets, and (fortunately less reliably!) ethanol are going to save the planet quite effectively in both Congress and in the media. (eg, Lieberman, Warner To Push Nuclear Energy In Carbon Bill
http://www.nationaljournal.com/congressdaily/cdp_20080521_1570.php)

If we want a decentralized solar / wind grid combined with efficiency / consumption reduction efforts in the US -- because that is both the most effective, just, and long-term sustainable way of reducing emissions -- we are going to have to fight tooth and nail for a radically different society: raising awareness about 350 isn't going to be enough. (I'm not saying raising awareness about 350 isn't super important too - it's just not enough!)

This is one thing I think is missing from Ken's piece that I'm always harping on here (and on the streets as much as possible): we have to challenge the bogus, false solutions JUST AS MUCH as raising awareness about 350 and challenging the coal and oil industry. Sadly the groups doing this are deeply marginalized by the media, foundations, many mainstream environmental groups, etc. 

[For an interesting Global North / Global South comparison compare the success of Via Campesina with the constant marginalizing of the hyper-consumerism focused, technofix skeptical focused environmentalists in the US]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m with you all on most all of this, and there are some good unifying themes here&#8230;.</p>
<p>But isn&#8217;t it a little too optimistic to say:</p>
<p>&#8220;changes that are actually reducing emissions are also those that challenge the existing energy structure - not only in its reliance on planet-cooking fossil fuels but also in its persistent valuation of short-term gains (profits) over sustaining life and maintaining community health&#8221;</p>
<p>I think the powers that be are making the case that clean coal, nuclear, carbon offsets, and (fortunately less reliably!) ethanol are going to save the planet quite effectively in both Congress and in the media. (eg, Lieberman, Warner To Push Nuclear Energy In Carbon Bill<br />
<a href="http://www.nationaljournal.com/congressdaily/cdp_20080521_1570.php" rel="nofollow">http://www.nationaljournal.com/congressdaily/cdp_20080521_1570.php</a>)</p>
<p>If we want a decentralized solar / wind grid combined with efficiency / consumption reduction efforts in the US &#8212; because that is both the most effective, just, and long-term sustainable way of reducing emissions &#8212; we are going to have to fight tooth and nail for a radically different society: raising awareness about 350 isn&#8217;t going to be enough. (I&#8217;m not saying raising awareness about 350 isn&#8217;t super important too - it&#8217;s just not enough!)</p>
<p>This is one thing I think is missing from Ken&#8217;s piece that I&#8217;m always harping on here (and on the streets as much as possible): we have to challenge the bogus, false solutions JUST AS MUCH as raising awareness about 350 and challenging the coal and oil industry. Sadly the groups doing this are deeply marginalized by the media, foundations, many mainstream environmental groups, etc. </p>
<p>[For an interesting Global North / Global South comparison compare the success of Via Campesina with the constant marginalizing of the hyper-consumerism focused, technofix skeptical focused environmentalists in the US]</p>
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		<title>By: Katherine Forrest</title>
		<link>http://itsgettinghotinhere.org/2008/05/21/ken-ward-early-warning-signs-at-the-global-warming-cafe/#comment-64213</link>
		<dc:creator>Katherine Forrest</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 25 May 2008 01:42:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://itsgettinghotinhere.wordpress.com/?p=4754#comment-64213</guid>
		<description>Most who are aware of the magnitude of the global warming threat havent' quite realized yet that we need a social movement--this is not just about letting the usual parties handle the future of the planet. If folks are serious about talking about a movement to bring about the kinds of social and systemic changes that will be necessary to address global warming quickly, I suggest you start by reading an insightful book by Bill Moyer (no "s" on that) et al, "Doing Democracy: The MAP Model for Organizing Social Movements" (http://doingdemocracy.com/).  

Moyer et al explain that there are different parties involved in a movement that actually brings about change; they play different roles at different times in the process.  All are ultimately necessary, but they often misunderstand each other, leading to counter-productive blaming.  As I see it, the big environmental org'ns are playing their usual Reformer role of monkeying around with the details of policy solutions--and at some point that will be needed to bring the politicos on board.  Groups like the Apollo Alliance are doing their Change Agent part to broaden the acceptance of the need for change--the sugar that makes the medicine go down.  The People are beginning to understand that something is needed, but by themselves they can't drive the process forward.  

The critical piece that's missing--and is needed now if we're to have any hope of halting runaway climate change--is the radical, noisy Rebel groups that have to be out there making LOUD noise.  This means strategic plans and use of effective grassroots action, communications and media-savvy tactics.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Most who are aware of the magnitude of the global warming threat havent&#8217; quite realized yet that we need a social movement&#8211;this is not just about letting the usual parties handle the future of the planet. If folks are serious about talking about a movement to bring about the kinds of social and systemic changes that will be necessary to address global warming quickly, I suggest you start by reading an insightful book by Bill Moyer (no &#8220;s&#8221; on that) et al, &#8220;Doing Democracy: The MAP Model for Organizing Social Movements&#8221; (http://doingdemocracy.com/).  </p>
<p>Moyer et al explain that there are different parties involved in a movement that actually brings about change; they play different roles at different times in the process.  All are ultimately necessary, but they often misunderstand each other, leading to counter-productive blaming.  As I see it, the big environmental org&#8217;ns are playing their usual Reformer role of monkeying around with the details of policy solutions&#8211;and at some point that will be needed to bring the politicos on board.  Groups like the Apollo Alliance are doing their Change Agent part to broaden the acceptance of the need for change&#8211;the sugar that makes the medicine go down.  The People are beginning to understand that something is needed, but by themselves they can&#8217;t drive the process forward.  </p>
<p>The critical piece that&#8217;s missing&#8211;and is needed now if we&#8217;re to have any hope of halting runaway climate change&#8211;is the radical, noisy Rebel groups that have to be out there making LOUD noise.  This means strategic plans and use of effective grassroots action, communications and media-savvy tactics.</p>
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		<title>By: Dr. Francis T. Manns</title>
		<link>http://itsgettinghotinhere.org/2008/05/21/ken-ward-early-warning-signs-at-the-global-warming-cafe/#comment-64176</link>
		<dc:creator>Dr. Francis T. Manns</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 May 2008 23:15:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://itsgettinghotinhere.wordpress.com/?p=4754#comment-64176</guid>
		<description>Applying the cautionary principle to free speech in America?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Applying the cautionary principle to free speech in America?</p>
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		<title>By: katherinekirklin</title>
		<link>http://itsgettinghotinhere.org/2008/05/21/ken-ward-early-warning-signs-at-the-global-warming-cafe/#comment-64129</link>
		<dc:creator>katherinekirklin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 May 2008 14:54:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://itsgettinghotinhere.wordpress.com/?p=4754#comment-64129</guid>
		<description>Jamie,

Good questions.  I definitely recognize and respect your points, and I think the worst thing we can do at this stage is take any position that translates to a delay on real and immediate action.  
At the same time, to continue the discussion, I believe that we have neither the burden nor the luxury of engaging with a choice between taking meaningful action to mitigate carbon emissions or making radical changes to the system that constitutes the "root causes" of the climate problem.  They appear so linked as to be inextricable.  More and more, we are seeing that those changes that are actually reducing emissions are also those that challenge the existing energy structure - not only in its reliance on planet-cooking fossil fuels but also in its persistent valuation of short-term gains (profits) over sustaining life and maintaining community health.  In addition, I think we have to ask ourselves, who benefits from us thinking that we might have to choose between "root causes" and real outcomes?  If corporations, which increasingly seem to see the renewable energy market as a new frontier for profits (not strictly a bad thing, nor strictly a good thing), simply shifted their fossil-fuel based energy monopoly to a renewable energy monopoly, I believe we would find ourselves faced with the same scale of insidious social and environmental problems not too far down the road, as renewables would be directed at perpetuating global over-consumption and extractive production that will always be ecologically and socially destructive.  
Really, however, this would probably never happen, since it is also becoming increasingly obvious that the clean energy revolution will not run on energy "monoculture."  For better or worse, it does not appear that we are going to find a "silver bullet" that could perpetuate the current economic paradigm even if we wanted it to.  Instead, to borrow Mr. McKibben's phrase, we'll be relying on our store of "silver buckshot."  Fortunately, "buckshot" appears to be inherently more democratic and sustainable - ecologically and socially.  
So, to make a long answer succinct, definitely no waiting!  The MLK anecdote is a perfect example, really; it was a bold, local, direct action that produced immediate and tangible change that was consistent with the values of the movement in process and outcome, and also built capacity for further action.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jamie,</p>
<p>Good questions.  I definitely recognize and respect your points, and I think the worst thing we can do at this stage is take any position that translates to a delay on real and immediate action.<br />
At the same time, to continue the discussion, I believe that we have neither the burden nor the luxury of engaging with a choice between taking meaningful action to mitigate carbon emissions or making radical changes to the system that constitutes the &#8220;root causes&#8221; of the climate problem.  They appear so linked as to be inextricable.  More and more, we are seeing that those changes that are actually reducing emissions are also those that challenge the existing energy structure - not only in its reliance on planet-cooking fossil fuels but also in its persistent valuation of short-term gains (profits) over sustaining life and maintaining community health.  In addition, I think we have to ask ourselves, who benefits from us thinking that we might have to choose between &#8220;root causes&#8221; and real outcomes?  If corporations, which increasingly seem to see the renewable energy market as a new frontier for profits (not strictly a bad thing, nor strictly a good thing), simply shifted their fossil-fuel based energy monopoly to a renewable energy monopoly, I believe we would find ourselves faced with the same scale of insidious social and environmental problems not too far down the road, as renewables would be directed at perpetuating global over-consumption and extractive production that will always be ecologically and socially destructive.<br />
Really, however, this would probably never happen, since it is also becoming increasingly obvious that the clean energy revolution will not run on energy &#8220;monoculture.&#8221;  For better or worse, it does not appear that we are going to find a &#8220;silver bullet&#8221; that could perpetuate the current economic paradigm even if we wanted it to.  Instead, to borrow Mr. McKibben&#8217;s phrase, we&#8217;ll be relying on our store of &#8220;silver buckshot.&#8221;  Fortunately, &#8220;buckshot&#8221; appears to be inherently more democratic and sustainable - ecologically and socially.<br />
So, to make a long answer succinct, definitely no waiting!  The MLK anecdote is a perfect example, really; it was a bold, local, direct action that produced immediate and tangible change that was consistent with the values of the movement in process and outcome, and also built capacity for further action.</p>
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		<title>By: Richard Graves</title>
		<link>http://itsgettinghotinhere.org/2008/05/21/ken-ward-early-warning-signs-at-the-global-warming-cafe/#comment-64099</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard Graves</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 May 2008 06:19:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://itsgettinghotinhere.wordpress.com/?p=4754#comment-64099</guid>
		<description>Paulidian,

This is why I hated symbolic logic and almost left the class early it was so ridiculous. It is actually neither logical, nor particularly applicable to the real world. The precautionary principle is not based on some quasi-mythical 'perfect knowledge', it is based on the best effort of science to attempt to explain the possible impacts of the action. That is what NEPA and other cornerstone environmental legislation is based on. The scientific method serves us a lot better than symbolic logic or other inconsistent philosophical games in these circumstances.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Paulidian,</p>
<p>This is why I hated symbolic logic and almost left the class early it was so ridiculous. It is actually neither logical, nor particularly applicable to the real world. The precautionary principle is not based on some quasi-mythical &#8216;perfect knowledge&#8217;, it is based on the best effort of science to attempt to explain the possible impacts of the action. That is what NEPA and other cornerstone environmental legislation is based on. The scientific method serves us a lot better than symbolic logic or other inconsistent philosophical games in these circumstances.</p>
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		<title>By: jamiehenn</title>
		<link>http://itsgettinghotinhere.org/2008/05/21/ken-ward-early-warning-signs-at-the-global-warming-cafe/#comment-64091</link>
		<dc:creator>jamiehenn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 May 2008 02:41:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://itsgettinghotinhere.wordpress.com/?p=4754#comment-64091</guid>
		<description>That's a good point Katherine, thanks for the comment. 

I hear what you're saying about addressing the root causes. Is it maybe a bit of a chicken and the egg type scenario, however? Do you have to address every root cause of the climate crisis before instituting solutions that will start reducing our damage to the earth and mitigating carbon emissions? Or do you have to make sure that the solutions that you propose solve the root causes as well? Or do they just have to not make the root causes worse? 

Martin Luther King strongly argued that our country couldn't wait to end inequality in this country; he also settled for desegregating the Birmingham buses without desegregating the entire city, or country for that matter. How can we keep our moral voice while recognizing that sometimes it's important to claim partial, but nevertheless real, victories? Those are questions for everyone . . .</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That&#8217;s a good point Katherine, thanks for the comment. </p>
<p>I hear what you&#8217;re saying about addressing the root causes. Is it maybe a bit of a chicken and the egg type scenario, however? Do you have to address every root cause of the climate crisis before instituting solutions that will start reducing our damage to the earth and mitigating carbon emissions? Or do you have to make sure that the solutions that you propose solve the root causes as well? Or do they just have to not make the root causes worse? </p>
<p>Martin Luther King strongly argued that our country couldn&#8217;t wait to end inequality in this country; he also settled for desegregating the Birmingham buses without desegregating the entire city, or country for that matter. How can we keep our moral voice while recognizing that sometimes it&#8217;s important to claim partial, but nevertheless real, victories? Those are questions for everyone . . .</p>
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		<title>By: katherinekirklin</title>
		<link>http://itsgettinghotinhere.org/2008/05/21/ken-ward-early-warning-signs-at-the-global-warming-cafe/#comment-64088</link>
		<dc:creator>katherinekirklin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 May 2008 00:20:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://itsgettinghotinhere.wordpress.com/?p=4754#comment-64088</guid>
		<description>An excellent piece that does indeed focus on the heart of the issue.  At the same time, I would reframe the introduction a bit by suggesting that Ward's argument not so much answers but rather directly contributes to the policy debates that have been (productively) raging on IGHIH.  Essentially, these arguments are between those who appear to believe in the possibility of effectively responding to the climate crisis within the existing political/social/economic paradigm (i.e. finding the politically palatable climate policy, in Ward's terms), and those who believe that the causes of the climate disaster are inextricably linked to equally disastrous and frighteningly entrenched political, social, and economic systems.  As a result, the latter group seems to argue that any meaningful solution must take up Ward's challenge that we as a movement radically and passionately engage with the task of dismantling these destructive societal structures as a necessary part of our climate work.
So, without aiming to be divisive, I think that Ward may have scored some points for "group two" by articulately pointing out that it is not our job as activists to appease those who created and perpetuate this mess by conforming to their paradigm.  Instead, we need to find the courage to take the truly radical actions that we know are necessary, if we can just muster the guts to go for it, and support others who are hungry to make the leap with us.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>An excellent piece that does indeed focus on the heart of the issue.  At the same time, I would reframe the introduction a bit by suggesting that Ward&#8217;s argument not so much answers but rather directly contributes to the policy debates that have been (productively) raging on IGHIH.  Essentially, these arguments are between those who appear to believe in the possibility of effectively responding to the climate crisis within the existing political/social/economic paradigm (i.e. finding the politically palatable climate policy, in Ward&#8217;s terms), and those who believe that the causes of the climate disaster are inextricably linked to equally disastrous and frighteningly entrenched political, social, and economic systems.  As a result, the latter group seems to argue that any meaningful solution must take up Ward&#8217;s challenge that we as a movement radically and passionately engage with the task of dismantling these destructive societal structures as a necessary part of our climate work.<br />
So, without aiming to be divisive, I think that Ward may have scored some points for &#8220;group two&#8221; by articulately pointing out that it is not our job as activists to appease those who created and perpetuate this mess by conforming to their paradigm.  Instead, we need to find the courage to take the truly radical actions that we know are necessary, if we can just muster the guts to go for it, and support others who are hungry to make the leap with us.</p>
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		<title>By: Paulidan</title>
		<link>http://itsgettinghotinhere.org/2008/05/21/ken-ward-early-warning-signs-at-the-global-warming-cafe/#comment-64079</link>
		<dc:creator>Paulidan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 May 2008 21:18:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://itsgettinghotinhere.wordpress.com/?p=4754#comment-64079</guid>
		<description>The precautionary principle is logically self contradictory.

Consider proposition A. The precautionary principle would say not to do proposition A because perfect knowledge of it's effects (perfect meaning each and every permutation of the chaos) are not known

Now consider proposition (negation)A. The precautionary principle says not to undertake (negation)A because perfect knowledge is not known of it's effects. This double negative leads to a positive A which suggests to undertake proposition A. 

Thus, for every proposition upon which there is not perfect knowledge the precautionary principle dictates that one must do and not do the proposition simultaneously.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The precautionary principle is logically self contradictory.</p>
<p>Consider proposition A. The precautionary principle would say not to do proposition A because perfect knowledge of it&#8217;s effects (perfect meaning each and every permutation of the chaos) are not known</p>
<p>Now consider proposition (negation)A. The precautionary principle says not to undertake (negation)A because perfect knowledge is not known of it&#8217;s effects. This double negative leads to a positive A which suggests to undertake proposition A. </p>
<p>Thus, for every proposition upon which there is not perfect knowledge the precautionary principle dictates that one must do and not do the proposition simultaneously.</p>
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